Monday, January 29, 2007

"Mom, Dad - I'm Pregnant"

Those two words - I'm pregnant - uttered by young women around the country millions of times over; the amount of teen terror as they try and muster up the courage to tell their parents, ocean-sized. And even if a young woman gets up the guts to talk to her parents; even if a young woman feels that her parents would understand, there are still mountains yet to climb. What are the options? How does one access those options? What if the young woman is pregnant as a result of a rape? What are the laws in her state around abortion? Adoption? What if she wants to keep the baby? Are the resources out there to help a teen care for her child?

The Abortion Conversation Project (ACP) has answers. In their new web site, MomDadImPregnant.com , teens and their parents will find "communication advice for family crisis" in the form of resources, referrals, guidance, help and mostly information presented in a loving and compassionate manner, devoid of the political statements or angry judgements that seem to permeate other resources for pregnant teens and parents.

ACP has created a place where teens can access help to communicate with their parents about their pregnancy and where parents can feel gently guided if they are at a loss for what to say or how to support their pregnant teens. As the press release announcing the advent of the new project puts it,

Yesterday, your mother was nagging you about cleaning your room. Today, how do you tell her you’re pregnant? Your daughter has seemed remote but you never suspected she might be pregnant: how do you respond? The “Mom, Dad, I’m Pregnant” Project of the Abortion Conversation Project, Inc. addresses these questions and more on its new website and in companion handouts, “How Can I Tell my Parents?” and “How Do I Respond?” The website, www.MomDadIMpregnant.com offers specific suggestions for both young men and women and for their mothers and fathers who are dealing with a pregnancy crisis.


And this:

The MomDadIMpregnant.com site includes advice for teens on telling parents about a pregnancy, considering options, information in case of a rape, and special advice for young male partners. Advice for parents highlights how to respond and improve relationships with daughters and sons, as well as special advice for moms and dads. There are sections on Minor’s Rights, and what to do if parents may be abusive, as well as spiritual, legal, and additional resources.


Of course, since the Abortion Conversation Project was initially launched as a project to assist in reducing the stigma around abortion by talking truthfully and honestly about abortion, there will be the usual kicking and screaming from the anti-choice activists. But that's a shame. Because ACP has been the harbinger of positive and radical change in the pro-choice movement since its beginnings in 2004.

ACP has ushered in a new discourse around abortion and reproductive rights. ACP offered the initial support and guidance for publications like Our Truths, Nuestras Verdades (for which I was on the first Board of Directors) - a magazine that seeks to give voice to women's and men's abortion experiences through creative nonfiction, commentary, poetry and visual art. ACP offers resources for how to have an open, honest one-to-one conversation about one's abortion experience or the abortion experience of someone close; they also offer information on how to have community conversations about abortion.

The authenticity of the Abortion Conversation Project for me (a former abortion clinic staffer for 6 1/2 years), is that it was started and it continues to be lead by independent abortion providers. The sincerity with which the ACP desires to open the conversation around abortion and allow women's voices to rise to the top of that conversation changes the discourse around abortion dramatically.

While the anti-choicers are now ready to lead with their "new" strategy that focuses on highlighting women who say they have been hurt by their abortions and the tagline that's resulted ("abortion hurts women"), ACP focuses on how to help women who have had an abortion or women who choose to access abortion deal with their abortions without the stigma and silence that surrounds most women's experience pre- and post-abortion.

I'm very excited for this new resource and I hope Planned Parenthood doesn't let their super-powered, corporatist mindset stand in the way of steering young people and parents towards MomDadImPregnant.com. Can you sense my hostility towards PP? They seem to lead the conversation, with NARAL ProChoice America, around abortion even though the majority of abortions are performed by independent abortion providers thus making organizations like ACP - led by independent abortion providers - more "expert" than PP or NARAL.

ACP represents "the little guys" and they are nimble and authentic enough to know what women, families and communities need to move past abortion as a loaded topic into the real world.

Re-posted on Reproductive Health Reality Check.

24 comments:

UmmBint said...

I'd just like to make some comments because your post thoroughly disgusted me. I'm 17 years old and 2 months pregnant. I agree that there should be more resources out there for pregnant teens and how to talk to their parents. I had a hard time telling mine but it worked out. They should have resources that teach teens not to be having sex in the first place and if they really want to to be able to handle the consequences not how to make it easier to kill your child. Abortion just makes it easier for a girl to think, "Well if I do get pregnant I will just have an abortion." While teen promiscuity is running rampant unwanted babies are being killed left and right. I understand rape is different but either way that child is a living being-dependent-but living. Beating heart, active brain, everything. It's the same thing as killing a person in a coma. If someone you loved was going to be in a coma for 3 months would you kill them? I was raped at 13 and got pregnant. I didn't know anything about abortion controversies but I knew deep down that the was something completely WRONG with having one done. I did end up having a miscarriage a month or two down the line but at least then I was guilt free.

Reproductive right? What is that? Ok reproductive rights-you have to right to not be pregnant-yes-so then don't have sex!

I'd like to share a couple abortion stories...My parents are friends with an older woman who had an abortion at 15 because she didn't know what else to do. Well she went through severe pain for about 6 months due to an infection caused by the abortionist leaving a "PIECE OF THE BABY'S HEAD" inside her uterus! She is no longer able to have kids although she wants to so badly. She is married and is also now a practicing Catholic. She currently acts like a "Mommie" to her two cats. I cry when I see her with them holding them like babies and feeding them treats, talking to them like they were her kids. She is such a good person and did not deserve a fate like this.

Ok now my other story. My mom got pregnant when she was almost 16. She didn't know what to do and then finally worked up the courage to talk to my grandma. My grandma-afraid of what people would say talked my mom into having an abortion. My mom says she will regret that day for the rest of her life. I am out one older sibling because of it-one person I could have shared my life with is gone-killed.

http://www.cbrinfo.org/Resources/pictures.html

Take a look, have you seen this before? Now try to talk to me about abortion truthfully and honestly. The truth is that you are concerned about the girls who are out having sex when they should be home working on their future's and not concerned about the future's of the babies that you are killing. What if the baby you are helping to abort is a girl that someday gets pregnant and wants to abort that baby? Two birds with one stone? Give yourself a pat on the back! Good job! The truth is that in a d&C abortion they tear the baby limb from limb with suction and then crush the baby's skull and suck the pieces out. The truth is that a 12 week old fetus in the short movie "The Silent Scream" can be seen in an ultrasound trying feebly to avoid the suction device sensing danger as the baby's heart rate rises.

Just a question...these are just words, but they seem you mean a lot to people who are for abortion-if you like to call pro-life people "anti-choice" and I like to call "pro-choice" people anti-life, what's worse? Anti-choice or anti-life?

Anti-choice could be many things-a mother that gives their teen girl no choice when it comes to having sex until they get older. But anti-life? What could that be compared to? Hmm...lets see...well there are serial killers...oh darn same thing...I'd like you to answer that one.

I currently have $3.54 in my bank account, some change in a jar in my room, and no job to boot. I have a boyfriend who gets paid $6.50 an hour and neither of us has insurance. We were having sex WITH the acceptance that if something did happen we would deal with the consequences-meaning nurturing the life we created. Yes, my mom was angry at first but she knows my feelings and has stood beside after her bout of being worried to death. It WILL be a hard life but that is not the decision I made by keeping my baby. That is the decision I made by OPENING MY LEGS.

And one more thing,
I think ACP should represent "the little guys" because they ARE nimble and authentic enough. And should know what women, families and communities need to move past abortion as it is a horrible deed and get there hearts into the real world with the rest of humanity.

jack said...

Yes UmmBint, it's true that when you let abortion happen cute widdle feuses get killed. It's equally true that when you ban abortion, cute widdle 15 year olds die in horribly painful ways from deaths caused by trying in desparation to perform a self abortion. The difference is, a fetus isn't a goddamn 15 year old. It doesn't think. It doesn't have feelings or emotions, and it never has. It isn't sentient, it has never desire d life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. To value an unsentient, parasetic piece of flesh over ANY woman is probably the one of the most sick and sadistic things possible to do in my mind.

Tikvahgirl said...

Ummbint, I am glad that you entered into a sexual relationship knowing the consequences, feeling that should you get pregnant you knew you would keep the baby. I hope the pregnancy goes well and you are blessed with a beautiful baby.

It would be fruitless to respond to a lot of your comments - which seem to focus mostly on your mother & her friend - both of whom seem to have had horrendous abortion experiences causing them each a great deal of personal pain. Your rape & subsequent pregnancy and miscarriage are obviously traumatic as well.

You clearly have a perspective based mostly on personal pain and severe anti-choice propaganda.

Abortion is one option for women who are pregnant. It needs to remain an option. I do hope you do some more research, I hope you read about comprehensive sexuality education and how important it is that we ensure that all teens have access to science-based, sexuality education.

I hope you can read up on the real facts about abortion. Movies like The Silent Scream and other extreme anti-choice propaganda are created to make people like you believe that somehow this is about pitting the fetus against the woman.

It's not. It's about ensuring that women have access to a safe, legal procedure (abortion is ten times safer than pregnancy and millions of women die each year - each year - as a result of unsafe abortions around the world).

You have every right to personally decide that you would never access abortion. I worked at an abortion clinic for 6 1/2 years and saw every woman in teh world come through our doors - Catholic women, Protestant women, Jewish women, Muslim women, "pro-life" women, 12 year olds who were pregnant with their father's child, 45 year old mothers with three kids.

At seventeen years old it is easy to judge the world. I appreciate your strong and courageous stance. But please know that there are millions of us out there who are loving, kind and strong people who will never allow the right to a safe, legal abortion to be lost here. I have two amazingly beautiful children and will make sure that my daughter has the opportunity to control her reproductive health - not the government, and certainly not religious leaders who believe they know what it right for eveyrone.

Good luck to you. Motherhood is amazing when you're ready for it!

UmmBint said...

Hi Jack, I was checking back just to see if the owner of this blog had deleted my comment yet because I am currently posting it on my site with a "what the hell?" response...but...to my (and my mother's) viewing pleasure I found your comment! We talked about this and my mother has gotten pretty upset over what you have said. I'd just like to give you a couple responses.

1) Don't fantalize me. I might be young in age at 17 but I am not young in mind. I've been through rape, 3 years with physically and emotionally abusive father, and two miscarriages-and those are just the "biggies."

2) If you don't want to ban abortion because you are afraid that girls (who shouldn't be having sex in the first place) will preform abortions on themselves and cause serious harm or death-then why don't you just go all the way and make "real murder" legal? And smoking crack? A lot of people die every day commiting crimes. If we made things like smoking crack legal and made safe places that you could do it in order to prevent someone from lets say overdosing, then would it be OK? Sure supporters of crack would be happy but would that make it right? And if we made "real murder" legal? If you murder someone and get caught you have a chance of being killed yourself depending on what the judge decides. If we made it legal we wouldn't have to worry about this, but does it make it right? The answer? NO.

3. So you value a 15 year old over a fetus? Aren't they both human? Don't they both have tremendous possibilities?

4. How do you know if a fetus can feel emotions? Or has a desire for life? And what does desiring liberty have to do with being good enough not to be murdered? I can bet that a child-maybe even up to 12-has no clue what liberty is or for that matter has a desire for it. Why then, in your eyes, are they considered off limits for your malicious ways?

5. It is not about valuing a "parasitic piece of flesh" over a woman. It is about valuing a human life over a "woman" wanting to kill her child because she made a mistake and it wouldn't be convenient for her at that time in her life.

6. I was just mussing-what if your mother decided to abort you because she was irresponsible and you weren't convenient at the time? Because she thought you were just a parasitic piece of flesh and valued herself over you?

My mom would also like to have me type you something. She says, "I think YOU are one of the most sick and sadistic people in my mind. I will never forget about my abortion-it was the lowest point in my life-the thing I regret the most because when you get down to it-it's wrong-it's just wrong to kill your baby."

UmmBint said...

I'm sorry, while I was typing you left a comment and I couldn't include my response in my last comment. I don't want to fill up your blog but I just want to make some things clear.

My first response does not focus on my mother's or her friend's "bad abortion" experiences. It was meant to focus on one thing. Killing a child is wrong and has consequences. I do base my opinions on personal pain. Pain in my heart when I see my friends heading out to get abortions while on the other side I know older people or even people like Justine who is 16 who can never have kids and are waiting for the chance to love and except a baby in their lives through adoption. I understand it is harsh to tell a girl that once she becomes pregnant that she must carry it until birth before she can get it out of her life. I wouldn't like it if I had to carry that one man's child for a whole 9 months but I also understand that it was my child too. I haven't made this clear-I am against abortion for non-medical reasons. And am still deciding my opinion on if a girl gets raped or a victim of incest. I want to say two wrongs don't make a right on this but I'm not sure yet.

I am not a person to make judgments quickly. I've spent hours (not including today) researching abortion-pro an con. I did not make my judgment lightly. I think it was rude to tell me that it is easy for me to judge the world at 17. I believe for a teenager-judging the world is one of the most hardest things to do. With everyone throwing opinions at you left and right and not knowing what to choose. You obviously don't understand teenagers and how they really feel.

I spent much of the morning reading through your various posts and looking at your links. I do think it is important to know both sides of an issue before making a decision. I live by "slow down, pay attention, question everything...start now." I have done this all my life.

The Silent Scream to me does not pit the fetus against the woman. If anything it pits the fetus against the abortionist. You cannot deny your eyes when you seeing a living being in the womb jumping and moving away from the abortionist's weapon of choice-something that will eventually rip the baby limb from limb no matter how much in struggles. You cannot deny the baby's heart rate rising every second and it goes into "fight or flight mode" and chooses to flee but cannot escape. It made me cry.

I am not catholic, I am not Protestant, Jewish, or Muslim. I do not have religious leaders telling me what to think. I do not having anyone telling what to think. In order for me to feel I have an identity I think for myself. "I think therefore I am." I have been raised (solely by my mother) to never "listen" to anyone. I reject anyone telling me what to do. When I lived with my abusive father (who was catholic) I was forced to go to confession which bothered me a little because I had to tell some old wierd guy all my intimate details. But every Saturday night at 4 there I was telling Father Tom I had sex with my boyfriend 7 times...blah blah. He would always say you need to stand up to him and never realized it was my choice and I didn't care about what he thought.

Anyway I just want to mention I like how you took the sweet-all knowing approach to responding to my comment. It's very convincing and you "seem" nice. And I like how you totally avoided the nitty gritty issue-abortion. You danced around the topic a little saying things about how abortions should stay legal and better rights should been allowed. I'd just like to hear why you think riping a child limp from limb is right in the case where the girl was just clearly irresponsible with her choices.

Broce said...

My goodness, Ummbint. You are 17, you've been, by your comments, pregnant 3 times, yet you believe teenagers should not have sex.

One wonders why you are the exception to your rule. One also wonders if you have any grasp on what raising a child actually entails. Thinking you can do it without an education, and with $3.54 in your pocket is what many of us would term "magical thinking," but I wish you a healthy pregnancy and a healthy outcome. May your life always be as simple and all answers so clearly black and white as you believe.

Abortion terminates a pregnancy. Sometimes, for some women, that is the necessary and responsible approach to an unintended pregnancy. I understand that you think a fertilized egg is the same as an adult thinking woman, and that the egg's rights should supercede hers. I disagree entitely, both medically, and philosophically. Many people do, and we do not have the right to impose our beliefs of others.

For example, I do not note remotely believe you are anywhere near prepared to raise a child. A child is a sacred trust, and it is my belief that it does a child a great disservice to be raised by someone who is not yet truly ready to parent. If you were my child, I'd be encouraging you to explore the option of adoption, considering your opposition to abortion. But you are not my child, and it is no more my right to force you to give up your baby because I truly believe you are not ready to parent, than it is you right to insist that someone else be forced to give birth against their will.

GrannyGrump said...

Well, I do have to give credit where credit is due. Even though the site clearly downplays the downside of abortion and subtly tries to steer visitors in that direction, it at least encourages girls to get their parents involved in their pregnancies. This reduces the risk that girls who do choose abortion will undergo secret abortions, that they'll go to fly-by-night abortion mills, and that they'll ignore symptoms of complications until minor matters threaten their fertility or even their lives.

So, I think prochoicers can probably link to it with no reservations at all, and even prolifers can link to it, with a caveat that it's only for ideas about speaking to your parents, and that their information about pregnancy choices is highly unreliable and unrealistic.

GrannyGrump said...

Jack, why is it so troubling to you that a young girl might die from a self-induced abortion, but evidently not troubling when young girls die from safe and legal abortions? Deanna Bell and Dawn Ravenelle were only 13 when safe-and-legal abortions took their lives.

Why is the hypothetical girl so much more important than the flesh-and-blood ones walking into fly-by-night abortion mills right now?

GrannyGrump said...

UmmBint, my beef is less that prochoicers value the girl more than they value the baby she's carrying. My beef is that so many of them put hypothetical women ahead of real women. Why are the women who die in legal abortion mills not important? Don't they deserve to live? Why is it only unacceptable for a woman to die from being punctured with a coathanger? Why is it okay to pull her bowel out with forceps and send her home to bleed to death? And yes, they're totally okay with that, to the point where they set up a legal defense fund for the abortionist who killed her

UmmBint said...

Ok so once again I check back-this is beginning to become amusing to me. I apologize for the others who are commenting on me and not your blog TikvahGirl-I guess they feel the need to attack me but I have to give a response to the oh so interested in my life.

I have been pregnant 3 times. One was result of a rape I endured at 13 from one of my mother's boyfriends. One is right now. One of those WAS like the girls I talk about. It was purely irresponsible. This is why I feel I have the right to speak from that point of view. I do not believe I am the exception the "my rule." I believe no one should be having sex (teenager or not) if they are not mentally ready to accept the responsibilities.

For someone who has just recently found out that she is pregnant I must say I do know what raising a child entails. As an only sister to 7 brothers (2 older-5younger-and the youngest more like a son to me than a brother), I know what raising a child entails. As a daughter of a single mother with boyfriends that were more parasitic than the baby growing in my womb, I know what raising a child entails. I do have the start of an education-thank you for that one. I have taken a child raising class (with exceptional grades.) A class that has been newly offered in my generation and obviously you know nothing about. Also a new thing for our generation, special schools for pregnant teens. I am inrolled on one so I can keep on track with graduation and also learn more about "what raising a child entails." Education-other than relating to pregnancy, labor and birth, and taking care of a child, is not needed to have children. I don't think knowing random facts like the capital of China is needed to raise a child. What is needed is the true love of a parent not 2 +2 =4.

Abortion is not a responsible choice. Abortion is a cop out-a rejection of REAL responsibility. Being responsible is the path that we have chosen for our child. Responsibility that will be very hard to keep up with but a responsibility I will never give up on, can never give up on. A responsibility that will have rewards beyond my imagination-when I see my child smile, or learn to walk, or rant to people like you. Those rewards are priceless.

I do think that I am ready emotionally and mentally to raise a child. I do not believe I am reading for an older child but I will grow as does my child. What parent doesn't learn and grow along with their children?


I've gone to appointments at human services and have been accepted for the healthy start program through MediCaid and also WIC. This information I found by myself-thanks to "all the great resources out there for pregnant teens."


I admit that I don't have squat. My family doesn't have squat. My boyfriend barely has squat. I am currently 6 weeks pregnant. We have almost 8 months to get more than squat. Oh and believe me we are trying.

I have spent hours at the store, online, asking advice for a list of things I need right away. I think I have it pretty well finished. It totals $1,062. I plan to breast feed but if I have complications then an additional cost will have to go along with that. This cost does not include diapers and wipes but everything else you could think of. I have already ordered many of the big things on my list-the end result $3.54 in the bank.

When I ask people for advice on certain things or tell them what I've been up to they are shocked and tell me it is too soon to be doing all of that. Well, maybe it is. But as a pregnant teen I am pushing towards being as prepared as possible as soon as possible. And if I miscarry again? Then the knowledge, the crib, the infant car seat, and the changing table will be around for next time.

And no I do not think a "fertilized egg" is the same as an adult thinking woman. What I said was the a FETUS IS JUST AS HUMAN AS A 15 YEAR OLD GIRL AND HAS JUST AS MANY POSSIBILITIES. Now that is a totally different thing.

Tikvahgirl said...

Wow! I go to work and come back to all of this.

I appreciate everyone's comments. Grannygrump, I generally avoid responding to extremists - of which you seem to be one - because you are not here for any reason other than to essentially scream and yell.

Ummbint, if my comment about 17 year olds tending towards judgement seemed insensitive, I'm sorry. You obviously believe that my "kind" approach is a tactic (I'm not clear what you think I'm trying to achieve). But what I'm getting at is that you seem to have a world view that is not backed by a wealth of experience but rather what seems (according to your own words) like a life of a great deal of trauma and pain.

What you just don't know - or refuse to acknowledge - is that the MILLIONS of women who have accessed safe and legal abortion in this country know and undersatnd what an abortion is. 92% of abortions in this country take place before the baby is 12 weeks old. Your contention that fetus' are ripped apart limb by limb is just absolutely false and I am so very tired of people who know absolutely NOTHING about abortion procedure's endlessly pontificating about a MEDICAL procedure that is peformed by a doctor.

You are FREE - that's right - FREE to not choose abortion as an option. Any woman is this country is FREE not to choose abortion. When a woman comes into the clinic I worked for she is told exactly what the procedure entails, she is shown her ultrasound and she is supported throughout the entire process by a family member, partner, friend or clinic staff woman. If a woman is unsure of her decision, she is sent home.

Women KNOW - and I'm so tired of forced birthers degrading and chaining women otherwise - that their unborn child's life is going to end. My god, it's hard to miss when forced birthers who pretend as if they care at all about babies, carry signs of almost fully developed babies-in-utero bloodied and ripped apart (completely NOT representative of what a 8-12 week old fetus looks like). Do you honestly believe that millions of women who access abortion have no idea what they are doing?

Face it - you can decide for yourself that you do not want to end the life growing inside you. That is absolutely your choice. But you cannot tell me - or anyone else - what I can or cannot do with my body or the life growing inside me. Yes, it can be sad. But for many women, an abortion is relief. It is the mother of two children saying I just cannot take care of another child when I already have 2 or 3 or 4 or more children. It's the teenager whose been raped; it's the millions of women for whom birth control doesn't work perfectly (we're fertile for 30-40 years of our lives!).

I hear your arguments and I appreciate your sadness over the death of a fetus growing inside a woman's body. I would never presume to tell anyone what to feel. I have birthed two beautiful children and had one miscarriage that was profoundly sad for me. I appreciate tremendously working towards creating a society where young people have access to accurate, clear and thorough sexuality information. I appreciate working towards a society where all women have access to contraception and proper health care. I appreciate a society where every baby that is born is a WANTED child.

Good luck to you. You can continue to post (as can you grannygrumps). But, please know, that disgusting images of fetuses from a late-term abortion (which is almost always done to save the life or health of a woman) are not going to change my mind. If forced birthers really understood who got abortions, what the fetus looked like (I've seen many) and that almost ALL women access abortion during the first trimester, this tactic would fall by the wayside. The new forced birth strategy seems to be that abortion hurts women despite MOUNTAINS of evidence to the contrary (you can read my earlier post about this). According to extremists like you and grannygrumps, doctors know nothing, women know nothing. The only people who seems to "get it" are - well - the anti-choice/forced birthers.

When my daughter growns into a teenager I will give her the infromation and care she needs to navigate sex and her sexuality in the healthiest way I know how. But if gets pregnant by accident, I know that safe & legal abortion will remain an option (yes, OPTION - not requirement)for her.

Good luck,
amie

GrannyGrump said...


I appreciate everyone's comments. Grannygrump, I generally avoid responding to extremists - of which you seem to be one - because you are not here for any reason other than to essentially scream and yell.


So I guess thinking that women deserve to survive legal abortions makes me an extremist. Thanks for clarifying that.

Tikvahgirl said...

Okay, for the last time, women deserve to survive legal abortions, they deserve to survive heart surgery, they deserve to survive birthing a child, they deserve to survive kidney failure....of course they deserve to survive!

Why O why do forced birth strategists persist in hanging onto these barest of threads to support an argument that is based solely on your personal belief system and not on what the right choice is for society?!

There is a risk in every, single medical procedure performed on the face of the earth. It is absolutely horrendous when a woman dies from an abortion, absolutely horrendous. And no one wants that. I don't want that for any young woman anywhere in the world.

But your solution is then to make abortion LESS SAFE and much riskier by outlawing all abortions so that millions more women die?

How is that helping women? I've said it before, the ACOG has said, the AMA has said it, in fact every major mainstream medical organization with a focus on maternal and child health has said it: Pregnancy is TEN TIMES riskier than abortion is.

Abortion is actually one of the safest medical procedures one can undergo. It takes five minues in the first trimester - five minutes.

So, please, it's fine with me if you do not believe abortion is a good choice. But by making it illegal you put millions of women in danger, you take basic human rights away from women and you endorse forced birthing.

Your argument does not withstand even the smallest of breezes. When women are not given access to safe, legal abortion women die.

UmmBint said...

"The uterus is emptied with medical instruments and suction."

-Planned Parenthood

"A vacuum aspiration procedure takes about 10 minutes. A D&E procedure usually takes between 10 and 20 minutes."

-Planned Parenthood

"More than 50 percent of women who use mifepristone abort within four or five hours after taking misoprostol. Bleeding may continue for about 13 days. Spotting can last for a few weeks. About 92 percent of mifepristone abortions are completed within a week. About 75 percent of methotrexate abortions are completed within a week. But in 15-20 percent of women it can take up to four weeks."

-Planned Parenthood

"88% of abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy."
Less than 9 weeks-59.2%
9-10 weeks-19.3%
11-12 weeks-10.1%
13-15 weeks-6.4%
16-20 weeks-3.8%
21 or more weeks-1.2%

-Guttmachar.org

So let's say 126,000 babies are aborted-a day-because that is the statistic. Then that means...

1,512 of those abortions-PER DAY- are aborted babies at 21 weeks or more gestation. Here's a baby at 21 weeks gestation.
http://slideshow.ivillage.com/parenting/pregnancy/calendar/your_babys_development/week_21.html

(and just do you know-babies who are further along in gestation (more than 16 weeks) cannot come out in small little pieces anymore-the mother is injected with a salt solution or "saline amniocentesis" into the womb that poisons the baby resulting in burned and deteriorated skin. At 16 weeks gestation a baby develops nerve endings in the skin-so yes just like you and I the baby can feel this.)

4,788 of those abortions-PER DAY-are aborted babies at 16-20 weeks gestation. Here's a baby at 16 weeks gestation.
http://slideshow.ivillage.com/parenting/pregnancy/calendar/your_babys_development/week_16.html

8,064 of those abortions-PER DAY-are aborted babies at 13-15 weeks gestation. Here's a baby at 1 weeks gestation.
http://slideshow.ivillage.com/parenting/pregnancy/calendar/your_babys_development/week_13.html

Looks nice as percentages doesn't it? 14,364 babies are aborted after 12 weeks of gestation PER DAY!

Also, here are some pictures of aborted fetuses from 7-10 weeks gestation. They also provide authenticity to these pictures.

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html

" CBR is preparing to take legal action against pro-abortion defendants who falsely accuse CBR of fraudulently altering pictures of aborted embryos and fetuses. We will present affidavits from our photographers and certifications of authenticity from technical experts who have examined our original negatives, transparencies and videotape. We will also rely on the expert testimony of physicians who have formerly practiced abortion medicine. One example of this type of authentication is contained in a letter we recently received from Anthony P. Levatino, M.D., J.D. Dr. Levatino is both a physician and attorney and he says the following:

I, the undersigned, having performed induced abortions earlier in my career, have examined the photos depicting the aborted human embryos and fetuses used by The Center For Bio-Ethical Reform in their public education projects (www.abortionNO.org). It is my professional opinion that the photos depict aborted human embryos and fetuses and that the depicted aborted human embryos and fetuses are accurately captioned as to age, in weeks since fertilization.

Accusations of fraud against GAP are inevitable but they are also intellectually dishonest. This lie is usually told by pro-aborts who only pretend to doubt that the images are authentic. They are panic–stricken by the fear that "choice" will be unmasked as an act of violence which kills a baby. Fear can be a sign of intelligence and in this case they are smart to be afraid. These pictures are the abortion industry's worst nightmare and things are about to get a whole lot worse.

Impugning the accuracy of our pictures is the same sort of tactic used by neo-Nazis in response to condemnation of the Holocaust. Skinheads just say death-camp photos are fake. The Holocaust never happened. The Final Solution is a slanderous, anti-Arian fairytale."

And also...

"Fortunately, both pro-lifers and Holocaust remembrance activists can readily authenticate their images. Some of CBR's critics, for example, make the strange allegation that our photos are actually pictures of stillborn and miscarried fetuses. This gambit doesn't even pass the snicker test. Obviously, neither stillbirth nor miscarriage will tear off a baby's arms and legs, or rip off its head and face or scald its skin with chemical burns. The bodies of the babies in our pictures all display the unmistakable injuries of abortion. If pro-aborts are going to lie, surely they can do better than these feeble falsehoods."

-cbrinfo.org

Please TikvahGirl, tell me again that, "Your contention that fetus' are ripped apart limb by limb is just absolutely false and I am so very tired of people who know absolutely NOTHING about abortion procedure's endlessly pontificating about a MEDICAL procedure that is peformed by a doctor."

What happens during vacuum aspiration? Or a D&C? Planned Parenthood puts in gently, "empties the uterus." But how? How can a suction device just empty a woman's womb? Is the baby already in pieces?

Oh and by the way, you might want to look and see where you got your statistics from. 92% of abortions are not done before 12 weeks gestation. It seems that much of your information used to try and make your point is false.

TikvahGirl I'd like you to stop using my "personal pain" as a reference to why I feel the way I do. I feel the way I do because it is wrong to end a life that has been created. It is even more wrong to think it is OK to do so.

It makes me sick how you go on and on about a woman's right and how you think you are protecting woman and you value them more because you are pro-"choice." These are the risks or what they call "side effects" of having a vacuum aspiration or D&E abortion.

-incomplete abortion-the embryo or fetus and other other "products of conception" are not entirely removed from the uterus.
-allergic reaction
-infection
-very heavy bleeding
-undetected ectopic pregnancy, which can be fatal if left untreated.
-blood clots in the uterus
-injury to the cervix
-organ injury
-in extremely rare cases death is possible from serious complications."

(and then bunch of rambling about how pregnancy is riskier than these types of abortions-which shouldn't be on there because pregnancy is what risks they are talking about.)

They go on to say...

"Vacuum Aspiration and D&E

The clinician and other staff people who perform the procedure may see the embryo or fetus, as well as the other products of conception."

My opinion on a woman's right to choose:

Women (including myself, my family, my friends, and others I do not know) ALL have the right to choose what happens to their bodies.

They have to right to not have sex.

They have the right to prevent pregnancy if sex "cannot be avoided"

They have to right to choose adoption for their child if it is unwanted and pregnancy resulted even if they tried to not let it.

It is their body and they can do with it as they please.

But abortion? That is not just doing something to their bodies. That is doing something to their babies' bodies and that is wrong.

A baby should be allowed to choose also what happens to their bodies just as much as it's mother.

Look at your daughter. She has the right to choose what happens to her body right? She is your daughter now-breathing talking-because you "gave" her that right-to live. She should not just be allowed reproductive rights after birth. She should be allowed LIFE rights at conception. Maybe someday she'll want to have kids. Do you think it is RIGHT to take that away from her?

I have become increasingly sick because of your thinking and opinions and yes you do have a right to your own opinions as do I.

I've also noticed you've become increasingly angry when making your comments due to grannygrumps comments. When I lie or don't believe what I am really saying I become more and more angry in effort to prove myself right. This also happens when I fear I am being proven wrong. In this case I do not believe I am wrong and it seems to me that you are.

Tikvahgirl said...

Hi Ummbint,
I just wrote a long comment and promptly erased it by accident.

Your comments "I have become increasingly sick because of your thinking and your opinions..." lead me to believe that there is nothing you are getting from this but frustration. Over and over again you write that what I believe "makes you sick." It seems silly to continue this sisyphean exchange but I really feel like you are smarter and more perceptive than this forced birth perspective reflects.

Suffice it to say that I hope one day we can leave women alone to make the decisions about our bodies that are ours alone to make.

I hope that you are putting some of that amazing passion & thoughtfulness into making sure that the number of innocent Iraqi children (living, breathing people) that have been killed as a result of this war does not increase.

I hope that you can come to some kind of less egotistical position on abortion that does not tell the millions of women who have accessed safe, legal abortion in this country that they are murderers.

I hope that you will stop visiting sites that tell you that pro-choice advocates are "afraid" that forced birth advocates' sad and desperate measures are "fact."

Please know that the 50,000 women who came through the clinic's doors that I worked at were not murderers. My friends and family members who had abortions - they are not murderers. But to carry your argument to its logical conclusion we should have prisons filled with women who have had abortions.

Women older than you and women younger than you know that ending the life of the baby growing inside is sometimes a choice that needs to be made. Millions of women have made this choice knowing full well what they were doing. Millions more will continue to.

Because despite those who believe a woman should be forced to birth a child against her will, abortion will always be an option for women. The majority of people in this country believe that - and I hope you can come to a place where you do not see women as evil, where you do not see your fellow citizens as evil - because they want strangers to stay out of their reproductive lives and health.

By the way, it is also amazing to me how a 17 year old young woman in her home - or a 55 year old man for that matter - thinks that looking up the description of a medical procedure on the internet makes them a doctor.

For completely unbiased medical information, visit the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists web site (www.acog.org). This is the medical organization that represents OB/GYN doctors. You can read the following information there:

Risks

Abortion is a low-risk procedure. An early abortion has less risk than a later one. BOTH ARE LOWER RISK THAN CARRYING A PREGNANCY TO TERM. Fewer than 1 in 100 women has complications from an early abortion. For later abortions, up to 2 in 100 women have complications. Although an abortion is low risk, some types are a form of surgery. As with any surgery, problems, even death, may occur.

Incomplete Abortion

Rarely, the pregnancy is not removed completely. Bleeding and infection may occur. If the abortion is incomplete, your doctor may need to perform follow-up curettage.

Infection

An infection can occur if bacteria from the vagina or the cervix get into the uterus after an abortion. Your doctor may give you antibiotics to prevent this or to treat the infection if it happens.

Hemorrhage

Some bleeding after an abortion is normal. Bleeding is rarely heavy enough to require a blood transfusion.

Damage to the Uterus

During a surgical abortion, the tip of a device may pass through (perforate) the wall of the uterus or tear the cervix. If this happens, further surgery may be needed. Other organs, such as the bowel and bladder, also can be injured if there is perforation. In these cases, surgery will be needed to repair the organ. The risk of perforation or tear of the cervix is about 1 in 1,000 abortions. The risk increases with the length of the pregnancy.

Death

The risk of death from abortion IS LOWER THAN 1 IN 100,000 WOMEN who have suction curettage. The risk of a woman dying from giving birth is at least 10 times greater than the risk from an early abortion.

So, please, Ummbint, if you're going to read, at least arm yourself with ALL of the facts.

Please, please be honest with yourself. You are anti-choice because you actually don't believe women should have control over their own bodies. This is not surprising given what you've been exposed to in your young life. But don't pretend that you have done all of this research and now your argument is that abortion hurts women. Your argument is that women should be punished for having sex at a young age, women should be punished for having sex at all, women should potentially not be punished if they are raped (which has never made sense to me about the forced birth position - abortion is murder except it's okay if the woman has been raped?) but somehow an abortion still always boils down to "murder" and so should be illegal.

None of your arguments make sense logically. Most of us are caring, loving people who are not the evil murderers people like you need to make us out to be in order to validate your forced birth perspective. Most pro-choice advocates I know do more for this country's women and children than even a handful of forced birth advocates do. Endlessly hurling threatening, insulting invictives, calling women murderers, working tirelessly to ensure that our national healthcare discussion focus on one reproductive health procedure to the exclusion of issues like affordable pre, peri and post natal care, access to pap smears and sti tests and treatment, affordable contraception, etc. tells me that forced birth advocates like yourself have only one thing on their minds - making sure that our entire society live by your rules, rules that are inevitably harmful to women, children and families.

So, yes, I will continue to confidently advocate for women and children - because I am also an extremely active advocate for fighting the global issues that affect children - poverty, hunger, environmental degradation - as the leader of the Seattle chapter of Mothers Acting Up(www.mothersactingup.org).

I will continue to do this work because women and children deserve nothing less.

UmmBint said...

Lady, you are whipped. I am tired of your ramblings and you ignoring what I really say. You make no comment to the points I make and instead rant over and over about how many women have had abortions and how they will continue to do it. How it's just a woman's body and she can do with what she wants.

More power to you for your helping of society/humanity (only when it includes those you consider to be a part of it right?) Maybe you could help our family out. We have been living in poverty since the day I was born. Maybe then we can stop worrying where the money is coming from tomorrow or if we are going to have enough food to last us until payday and then if the money we get from payday is going to have to be used to keep our house or pay our electric bill or if we can do both somehow and still eat.

You have no idea what real human pain and suffering is like. The pain and suffering I have endured as a child in this sick world and the pain and suffering I will continue to endure for many years because I "choose" to accept MY responsibilities. I am not some old guy dictating what a woman should do with her body. I am a young pregnant girl who says no you shouldn't be murdering your children. Kind of throws that argument out doesn't it?

Please stop trying to validate the murder of innocent human lives just so you don't have to face what you helped in doing all those years. This is also why you make me sick. Stand up for humanity and stop killing part of it.

Invictus said...

Here's the thing. I kept seeing postings mentioning the rights of the fetus. Now I want you all to stand aside from your tightly held views and look at the world step by step and completely objectively.

Bare with me because I do have a point. Where do rights come from? Well, we gave them to ourselves. You, as an American, can find these rights in the Constitution and more specifically, in the Bill of Rights. Think about all of the animal rights activists out there. Everyone is always trying to fight over whether or not animals have rights. The answer is no. They do not have rights because they do not have rights in law. The same goes for a fetus until (as I understand) until it has reached a certain gestational period. The question of whether or not these fetus' at a certain specified gestation, have rights is already answered. They do not to a certain point. That does not address the question of whether or not they should because the question is not one in the same. The world, and the situations we are given, needs to be looked at in steps in order to see it clearly.

Another point I want to make is this. The about the Principal of Ugliness. Take an absolute such as "People should never have abortions" or "Teenagers should always have abortions" or any absolute you like. If you are unsure of an ethical situation just take it to the ugliest conclusion you can logically think of. Know that man will go there. There is always some scum bag that will go there.

In response to the bantering back and forth. The attacks, the snide and flippant comments. We can never resolve these issues because we all have our own ideas, morals, values, opinions. Some of us have religious beliefs, some of us have personal experiences with one thing or another. Our families and friends play a role in the way we think. All of these things in our lives will lead us ultimately to what we believe to be true about the world. These things should not be fought about because when you fight about these problems that are so closely tied in with our beliefs, then war swiftly follows. So, at the end of the day you can either punch the guy on the bar stool next to you with whom you are having this conversation, or you can buy him a bear and call it a day. You cannot change the way a man thinks because you are not what has been the creation of him.

I think that we need to take a quick look at the Hindu belief in the value of "Ahimsa" This means extreme gentleness. Extreme. Imagine viewing the world with this value tied closely to your mind.

In closing I would like to say once more, you cannot change the way a man sees the world and how he acts in the world. You can only ever act accordingly with what you believe to be true about the world. From your actions will flow your character. Always make your decision with the WILL to do good. Embrace the world and what it gives you, and KNOW that the world will be ok. YOU will be ok .

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